Direct democracy in the game

I speak much from the experience of other similar games to this and thus I make assumptions that this will remind these games in the future much. So take that in notice.

Government tends to creates votes on tax revenues and such to the congress, but why could it not decide before pushing the "create a vote" button push "choose the vote type" button ? There you would find options "congress" or "direct". Than choosing "direct" a message or some sort will appear to each citizen with the nationality of the country about this vote and straight change to either vote No or Yes. I think this would be one way in people to get the chance to use direct democracy in game.

Please, if you have other versions how to do this (I'm sure you have) than post it here

A noble idea, but how often do you get a referendum in RL?
Besides, this would be exploited as votes gives you an expiriance. And spam laws would fly all over the world. I would only, maybe, give country an option of refferendum which would have no effect on law passing, but just to act as a poll.

Referendum yes, that's the word (sorry, English is not my mother language). Anyhow the XP issue is easily done with the fact that you would not get XP from voting in a referendum. Than we could see, if the government who creates the votes is driven by the will to only gain xp or to see peoples will being done . This is a moral debate that would of course create fun discussions in media.

Fun media debates = trolling and mass hysteria
Anyway, we could add both referendum option AND a simple non-law-affecting polls. Though mistakes could me made confusing the two, I still think we should implement both. It's fun and can be useful. Also as referendums could me a multi spawing reason, I suggest we put a level requirement on referendum voting (lvl 6+, perhaps?), while polls should be available for all vPopulans includeing newbies.
Also to avoid government useing referendums and polls for every single law, I suggest we implement a cost for this option. It will be expressed in CC (local/ country currentsy) where refferendums will cost more, and the polls less. Something like:
Poll = 5 CC per citizen
Referendum = 10 CC per citizen (but only citizens with voteing ability (lvl 6+?)
The price is only a suggestion, I will accept a better proposition

I think this idea is good and should be given a further thought.
PS: Don't worry about the english, I don't like it neither

, I suggest we put a level requirement on referendum voting (lvl 6+, perhaps?), while polls should be available for all vPopulans includeing newbies.

I support the idea of some lvl requirement for referendum - newbies after all have not yet played the game so much in order to fully understand what they vote for. About polls, yeh, I guess you could leave it for newbies also but I don't abandon idea of it having a lvl requirement also.

Also to avoid government useing referendums and polls for every single law, I suggest we implement a cost for this option

Now I understand that spamming of votes on every vote might happen but to me who supports the idea of direct democracy it would than be great! Every citizen would than be given the chance to make an impact to their country. If you do not want to vote, you simply dismiss the message.

Polls have a problem, when they can be made totally freely: troll-votings might occur and it kinda ruins the game spirit.. So a cost for a poll might than be a good idea.

Well what about giving congress the chance to decide how the country is governed? (Sorry I've just copied this from a suggestion I made once for that other game)

"I've thought about 3 different government systems which give different powers to the president, the congress and the nation as a whole:

A Republic That's what we have at the moment. Congress and the president suggest laws which are debated and voted for by the congress.

A Democracy That's filtering power down to the nation. Congress and the president still suggest the laws but it is the nation as a whole that vote on them. Each vote a citizen makes gets an xp point so it would be good for getting your population up to higher levels quicker, but should come at a time cost, each vote takes 48 hours instead of 24.

An Elected Monarchy/Dictatorship/Communism That is giving the president more power. The president suggests all laws (except impeachment) and the congress votes on them, the president getting additional votes. Voting time is reduced to 12 hours. This would be perfect during war-time or for re-tooling the economy quickly.

A congress will be presented with the choice of continuing with the current system when a new president is elected, or if there is an impeachment. They can vote on changing the system at any time inbetween as well but would have to live within the rules set by the government system at the time."

Herz wrote:Now I understand that spamming of votes on every vote might happen but to me who supports the idea of direct democracy it would than be great! Every citizen would than be given the chance to make an impact to their country. If you do not want to vote, you simply dismiss the message.

We elect government so THEY can make the decisions FOR us, not so they can make referendum on every single law possible. In real life, these things cost money, why should it be different here? You are not a ruler if you do not rule. If all you do is make polls and referendums, then everybody can be a president. And if you want to be more involved in politics, you make a political party. If they implement this option I demand, they make it with actual cost.

We elect government so THEY can make the decisions FOR us, not so they can make referendum on every single law possible. In real life, these things cost money, why should it be different here? You are not a ruler if you do not rule. If all you do is make polls and referendums, then everybody can be a president

Don't be narrow minded on this: there are several ways to rule (like Songbird here show great example, I'm coming to that later..). I do understand your point that you want to vote your represents to the congress and your president but this is called representative democracy. I for one want this game to be different to the other similar ones, and to stand out and to be more developed in this area. And the money thing: I can bend a little and say that making a referendum could cost some money, but we would have to have that option.

On Songbirds ideas:

I like the idea of being able to choose from different government systems but one serious question came to my mind: when you choose, for example, the "dictatorship", how do you go back to republic? The transitions from these different types might cause problems.. Still - idea is great, not sure how to put it in practice.

Narrowminded? Hahaha ok, this is getting redicilous...
I'm all FOR different types of government, but haveing referenfums on every single law is retarded. And that's putting it mildly. And NOT haveing the price on refferendums is just pure science fiction. Ney, it's fantasy.
Show me one, ONLY ONE, country that has this type of "government" and that makeing referednums is free, and I will agree with everything you say about any subject at any time.

It's up for debate whether you want to all law votes to be done with a refenderum. As I said earlier, I can accept the fact that makeing a a refenderum would cost.

Show me one, ONLY ONE, country that has this type of "government"

Switcherland. Wiki quote: "Through referendums, citizens may challenge any law passed by parliament and through initiatives, introduce amendments to the federal constitution, thus making Switzerland a direct democracy"

Yes, they "challenge" the laws via referendums, my idea would be that the ministers have power to make the votes as such. I'm not sure on how this "challenging of a passed law" would be done, if the direct democracy would be made that that way. At least ministers must be choosen by President who creates votes about the nomination to the congress (at least that's what I prosume is the way the poltical module will be done)

Wikipedia quote? Sorry, I don't accept that as a valid point.
If any Swiss out there can confirm that they vote on every single law, I might believe it.
Besides vote on every single law is different then, just challangeing the passed law. But how would we implement this "Law challange referendum"? Every citizen past level 10(?? debateable??) can "challange" ONE law every 2 months? But as reeferendums cost money this can be misused by the foreign agents working inside a country. So I don't like this option. Maybe a congressmen can challange ONE law per mandate. This can still be misused if the foreign agent has infiltrated the congress, but the chances for that are less then for a citizenship. So if majority of players insist on referendums, I suggest that option. Now all we need to de is agree uppon a reasonable and realistic sum of CC per citizen elegable to vote.

Yeah the Swiss don't vote on every single thing, they just get the right to referendum on anything that changes the constitution or any law made by parliament that enough ordinary citizens want to overturn.

But anyway, the reason we don't usually have direct democracy in RL is that it wouldn't work with millions of stupid and uninformed idiots voting on every single law. But here we'll have maybe a few thousand tops in each country - that is much easier to handle and organise.

@Herz
Yeah I'm not sure how you would pull a country out of dictatorship either - but then surely that very fact would stop every country doing it straight away. And maybe that would be another reason for war (just like in RL) to stop your neighbour being so evil and dictator-y.

Songbird wrote:
But anyway, the reason we don't usually have direct democracy in RL is that it wouldn't work with millions of stupid and uninformed idiots voting on every single law. But here we'll have maybe a few thousand tops in each country - that is much easier to handle and organise.

There are uninformed "two clickers" here as well, but that doesn't matter. We shouldn't hold progress because of them.

Songbird wrote:@Herz
Yeah I'm not sure how you would pull a country out of dictatorship either - but then surely that very fact would stop every country doing it straight away. And maybe that would be another reason for war (just like in RL) to stop your neighbour being so evil and dictator-y.

Oh, please don't tell me you believe that. That the wars are waged because of "dictarors". Oh, Songbird, I had such high hopes for you...

As for the game, theres easy way to pull this problem off. In fact it is based on the very option we are discussing. A coup based on the same mehanics as "law challangeing". A citizen, above certain level (has to be one of the highest levels in the vCountry) activates a "Coup" (can only do once every 2-3 months) that will send a poll like messege to other players. Asking FOR or AGAINS the coup. If majority of players are for takeing down the "dictator", the shift is made and that player takes the "throne" and he/she has the option to change the form of government if he/she so choses. Now if the coup doesn't sucseed, there must be some sort of penalty. But it should be so that the "dictator" decides. Penalty could be by takeing some of the traitors () money/property into state/personal treasury, or a level reduction, or str/work skill reducion, or he could just pardon the traitors offences.
OR, if the "Constitution" is implemented, the penalty for causing a riots/failed revolutions could be determend in the constitution and taken in effect automaticly. After which, at ANY point, the "dictator" can choose to pardon the offender reversing the penalty done by the law, to the previous state.
This reminds me, a couped "dictator" should also suffer a penalty if couped. Unless he flees the country like so many of them do...
Now is this all tehnicly (codeing wise) possible, is a different story

Ok I'm sorry Illusive I have let you down... I will hang my head in shame.

"Oh this war is all about regime change"
"Not the oil?"
"What oil? No one mentioned oil..."

That sounds like a lot of coding... Maybe it should be a little more simple in that congress gets to decide if they want to overthrow the current system of government as the first order of business when they get elected.
But I like the idea of some sort of penalty for a failed coup - maybe like the dictator can strip people of citizenship?
I always liked the idea that you could expel people from the whole citizenhsip thing (give them the EU Flag) - it would mark them out as crimals/PTOers/cheaters. Totally different topic..!

Another note on direct democracy/referenda...

Many U.S. states allow for popular referenda. Typically it requires a certain number of validated signatures on a petition to have the proposal put forward in the form of a popular vote. In many U.S. states, the threshold is fairly restrictive, while in others -- and especially in California -- it is fairly easy.

Arguments over whether popular referenda are truly more democratic rage on and on.

It is a mechanism for putting forward a law proposal that circumvents the elected representatives and in that sense provides a welcome "check" on the bureaucrats. Laws passed in this way are still subject to judicial review and I believe (but am not 100% sure) can also be vetoed by the Governor, just like any law proposed by the State legislative bodies.

On the other hand, such popular votes are subject to influence by moneyed interests and lobbying groups, but then so are the legislators. The argument here is that many voters are not well-informed and are easily influenced by television ads and so forth, whereas the legislators are (theoretically) more informed.

Seems to me it would be an interesting twist to introduce to a social strategy game. If nothing else, it is another way for players to get involved.

Songbird wrote:Ok I'm sorry Illusive I have let you down... I will hang my head in shame.

"Oh this war is all about regime change"
"Not the oil?"
"What oil? No one mentioned oil..."

That sounds like a lot of coding... Maybe it should be a little more simple in that congress gets to decide if they want to overthrow the current system of government as the first order of business when they get elected.
But I like the idea of some sort of penalty for a failed coup - maybe like the dictator can strip people of citizenship?
I always liked the idea that you could expel people from the whole citizenhsip thing (give them the EU Flag) - it would mark them out as crimals/PTOers/cheaters. Totally different topic..!

Sometimes it's not even about the oil. Serbia doesn't have oil. It has many different fields to rob and it has proximity to Russia and placements of the missiles on the biggest US military base in Europe... But that's a different story and I'm getting pissed off just by thinking about it...

Anyway, would a dictatorial country even have congessmen? What would be their purpouse if EVERYTHING is decided by the "dictator"? Besides, politicans don't care about the regime change. And if they do, it's only because they want bigger piece of the pie. It all comes down to the people. People have the power. People fight wars and "dictators". Hence, people should have the burden of such option of "coup".
I get it, that the codeing would probably be a problem, but like Quinn here said, we need some change in the political module. Eventually this regular one, will get boring. And theres huge potential for fun in these ideas posted here.
Which reminds me, we were discussing polls and referendums, and now we turned to political regimes

PS: "putting the flag of EU to mark the cheaters" - Brilliant, just brilliant

not a bad idea.